Women Don’t Want to Get Married: Debate Heats Up in Mailbag
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I have started this post numerous times and keep getting more good comments on my original post about women not wanting to get married and have kids. The posts are pretty diametrically opposed, from men taking umbrage and calling the posters “male-haters” to women saying that marriage is a means of enslavement, and then I had a few posts from men and women that didn’t fit either model. I have to say I have learned a lot. While I can’t even fit all the comments on here, I can provide a few as they crop up…
Here are a few highlights from the mailbag:
Dr. Ron Gerughty commented on this on another site:
Think about it. Marriage, pair-bonding, or any other 1 0n 1 arrangement is not natural. It is nothing more than a patriarchal doctrine. For millions of years, our Pleistocene ancestral women did not pair-bond. They had children only when they deemed it advisable, given the circumstances, they controlled their own conception, and they mated with many different men, but only those who they judged worthy (which they evaluated via mate assessment). Children were raised communally, mostly by women. That is until the advent of patriarchy and the Inversion (co-opting woman’s sexuality and inverting it to serve the specific agenda of woman as breeding stock and chattel). No wonder woman demonstrate so many adverse reactions to marriage, it’s contrary to their innate sexuality.
Interested? See www.esybron.org
A Cold North Wind made this comment on my site:
Some excellent material here. Abusers don’t stop- ever- until they are stopped. I cannot comprehend how it is- that if some big burly male attacks me and tries to kill me and rapes my children- and I live and can identify him etc.- ; he will be charged ,arrested and put in jail. But if there is some kind of relationship- father, husband, botfriend, uncle ,brother etc. – I get to be blamed- and never protected- and if I go for divorce, I will in all likelihood lose custody and have to pay the rapist- or at best, retain custody- but will be subjected to abuse- as well as the children- on every visit. Institutionalized insanity.We know, if we read news at all- that a lot of “visits”- end up with death- of children and/or mothers and sometimes,thankfully, the criminal.Dr. Ron Gerughty- you got it- exactly !
MamaLiberty had this to say:
When do they stop? In my own experience with the constant litigation and stalking by my xhole abuser…it NEVER stops! Mothers are being jailed by protecting their children from abuse or the child refusing to see their abuser/father…I am one of them.
Men view women and children as chattel…our foremothers I think would be saddened at the progress that women have made in the last 100 years or so. I am sure that they thought back when they won the right to vote that their daughters daughters daughters would have equality in all aspects of life and in fact the only right that women still have is the right to vote.
We have to fight for the rights to our bodies, we have to fight for equality in the workplace, we have to fight to keep our children from abusers. But that is fine with me….I like a good fight….because I am a woman and I make life in my body (if I choose) and not a single man can perform such miracles.
So Sacks quoted Farrell favorably? Ha! Warren Farrell was quoted in a 1977 issue of Penthouse speaking about “positive” incest, and he’s been trying to keep that Penthouse interview under wraps for decades, but it just won’t go away. Here’s one person’s take on the Farrell/Penthouse/Incest business:
Warren Farrell, Penthouse, and Positive Incest
Also, Farrell’s book “Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say” was one great big whining waste of time. Read this review of the book that shows just how worthless and petty Farrell really is.
XY Online: Review of Warren Farrell’s “Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say”
For many readers this is a tough subject to stomach with views like the one below issuing LOTS of comments:
Mike says: Wow – that was a really biased and confusing read. I think the main problem is that women, for the past 50 years or so, have entered into the work force. Studies show that women who work are generally more unhappy with themselves and thier families.
Maybe women need to stop being so selfish and go back to being home makers… You’ve got kids, ladies? And you feel rushed? Boo-hoo… maybe it’s guilt because your gene’s are telling you to spend more time with your offspring while you selfishly focus on your career.
Yeah, Mike wasn’t so popular after that. My original posting also brought up issues in “father’s rights”, divorce, women’s domestic abuse shelters. I can’t post them all, but these links from Ms. Petunia Pig are pretty good:
These are the two writeups by ampersand of Alas, A Blog. He actually covered it very well. He has links to Sacks articles on these two articles.
Basically Sacks and his crew were upset because there were two ads (there were three ads but they really only complained about two of them) that had pictures of children on them. One showed a picture of a young girl and said something to the effect of “When I grow up my husband will beat me”. The one with the young boy had the words “When I grow up I will beat (or kill can’t remember now) my wife.
In smaller letters at the bottom of the ad it had the sentence “This could happen if your child witnesses domestic violence”. Again it was something similar to that. Sacks had a select group call up the bigger sponsors from The Family Place’s website and tell of their disgust of the ads. Of course he said some of the sponsors pulled their financial support of TFP, and that he was not happy or something similar.
IMO (and again this is my opinion only – the rabid MRA’s hate me and will say I am committing libel), Sacks knew exactly what he was doing. Neither he nor anyone “civil” from his organization called up TFP regarding the ads. Paige from TFP said a few “nasty” callers called but she did not even know about this until it was full swing.
Like I said, ampersand from Alas did an awesome job covering this story and he even did a fundraiser for TFP on his website last year and matched funds to send to TFP.
Read on below for more on issues of violence against women, and here is a link to a high-ranking former Bush counsel who has been arrested for trying to kill his wife. Who says all marriage is bliss?
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Unasked Advice 
Well, I don’t want to have kids, becuase I need a job/ career, and due to the recession , I’ve stalled out, so by the time I earn enough to have my own house and car, I’ll be too old (+35).
If the economy stays this way, my chances of abuse go up. And if I do, by some miracle, get married, have kids, and get traded in, I can’t get married again because most men who pursue women with kids want the kids and not the women. And of course, marriage generally just sucks ass.
Marriage generally sucks ass? Wow, I love this quote, because so many women have been saying things like this, but there it is laid on the line. Women keep reading these posts, and men are offended. I see it as no surprise that women are unhappy about the marriage situation, but it still seems to come as a surprise to a lot of guys who seem to believe that we are all out there just waiting to get married and dedicate our lives to raising kids. Makes me laugh. thanks for the comment.
You’re welcome. I think the reason guys get offended is that they don’t like being called on their behavior. If said behavior makes them unmarriageable they think a woman will marry ’em anyway, and they can’t understand why the women aren’t lining up.
I’m 23 now almost 24. Growing up in a mid feminist world has been very misleading and depressing(And I find that many of my peer are depressed). A lot of it has to do with IMO the information provided (Media, books, TV, mom and dad) no longer fit the life styles most women are following. I decided to combat this misleading information by studying the feminist movement in great detail. I find the social changes that the feminist movement has provided affect many aspects of life. I also found that the biggest areas affected are areas where no path for men formed. Many many women no longer need or want marriage, but men are still were they started and still want a lot of the same things.
“but it still seems to come as a surprise to a lot of guys who seem to believe that we are all out there just waiting to get married and dedicate our lives to raising kids. ”
TV, books,media the “white picket fence.”
Regardless of the reality many men still grow up with the basic vision of what an idea life filled with “happiness.” Many of them still see The Brady Bunch as a happy model for a family. The context is that both people in this type of relationship are happy and living the perfect lives they want. They don’t see Carol(Brady Bunch) as “oppressed” or “chained to a bunch of kids.”
“can’t get married again because most men who pursue women with kids want the kids and not the women. And of course, marriage generally just sucks ass.”
Generalizing in this manner is sexist towards men(IE:”Most women who pursue men with rolex want the money not the man”). I often find women more sexist then most men and for some reason people don’t notice. It’s become so common I catch my self doing it. I just try and point it out and hope others do the same(even at me).
As the female gender gains its new social freedoms they have escaped the financial contract of marriage and with that being gone are no longer forced to raise a family(I don’t mean that to sound negative). This is a great thing the freedom that they have gained, but the men of today are very much still the men of yesterday. They have not changed socially as much as women have and it’s costing all of us. Feminism today is intended to free both sexes, but men are often confused to its new wonders.
Marriage is also symbolic of having kid because of the financial safety it provides for them. Extreme feminist have been known to attack marriage as an enslavement of women. However, I found at the core of the movement it is still considered to be the greatest event when Woman an Man swear to one another(equally). Many men welcome marriage as a personal choice JUST LIKE WOMEN who chose not to want want kids can chose to want kids and marriage. I don’t think it’s right to hate a man for wanting kids as a condition for a relationship or married(Men make choices just like women).
An extreme women once said to me “men wanting kids is their attempt to use woman’s body for his own means(As part of the ‘enslavement’) it’s my body and I decided what happens with it”. Yes, someone actuality said that to me.
And ,yes, the second half I agree with, but we have to be careful because statements like this that deny that men have any part in the birthing process(and their for no rights) and is sexist by nature. Men are going to have to change and learn so that we can take care of the house and children equally if women are to agree and that’s fine. Deciding to have kids is an agreement and for some the part of marriage they get to share with their partner they most want. With all these new choices also came the wide acceptance of the stay at home dad. At first many men saw this a terrible thing, but now many of them see it a freeing to be able to spend so much time with their kids(that confusion I spoke of.)
Criticizing (in any form) a man for wanting kids is sexist. JUST as sexist as criticizing a woman for not wanting them.
As for the way men behave I found a lot of it is because we no longer had a social arch type that works. Even if our last social arch type, compared to today’s world, was the lazy one of coming home to the wife and kids from a ‘hard’ day of work. Now that both parents often working ‘hard’ days that social arch type of course will not work. We need to change both men an women. I find that even mothers who work and have male children are not teaching them how to clean the house and do dishes(They still leave it for their daughters only and they need to CHANGE). As for the men that missed the teaching lesson many of us are having to play catch up and others are not learning at all(we need to CHANGE). Imagine a bunch of 23 year old dudes sitting around talking about how to clean(Guess what! It happens). I also think men need a new methods of expressing even basic common emotions and beliefs. A man just putting the ring on his wives finger at the alter is now a symbol of claiming her as his property. Yet when you ask him that’s not what he thinks at all.
A woman ask a very unique question in this video that puts it into focus that men are having just as many issues in today dealing with the opposite sex(And this all connects with the marriage “problems” imo). If just holding a door open for a women can be seen as wrong then where does that leave us with knowing how to emotionaly communicate with each other. We have always had a hard time expressing how we feel to the other sex, but we had simple gestures of respect that are no longer seen as valid. I’m not saying we need to bring back full chivalry, but I think reestablishing basic signs of good pure emotion will help. It is one of my greatest beliefs that women and men no long understand what each other want and/or need for a happy life.
I am not sure there is any kind of perfect emotional connection between men and women, any more than there is any perfect emotional connection between any people. But, for many women, marriage is not as advantageous for them as it is for the men, and so not as many women are interested. The posts about women not wanting to get married are the top posts of any I have put out there, because so many women agree. Part of this is an institutional system that needs changing, and part of it is that archetype you discuss regarding gender roles of cleaning and housekeeping. I do believe that parents (not just mothers) need to teach their children to take care of themselves independently, including cleaning up after themselves and/or their children. I have known many women who wanted and filed for divorce simply because it was the only way to force the dual work load. That is an extreme situation, but it has happened. That said, I often struggle with the gender bias in my own parents’ household, but as an adult woman, it simply means I leave my parents’ household when that starts.
For young men, I am sure that some of this social change seems rapid, but realistically, it’s part of the effect of evolving gender roles. I don’t know of any women who object to a man holding open a door, nor do I know women who distinctly dislike all men (although I have met some), but I think simple gestures are always appreciated. Maybe that’s where the communication bit comes in too, that some women don’t communicate their pleasure at simple gestures.
Personally, I think that when two people share the same sense of humor, the same things amuse them and make them laugh, that goes a long way toward the communication bit.